Gym Leader Rematches and Gym TMs

[AshenPhoenix]

It's late and i wanna sleep, but I'll put this here just because Tiki asked nicely

It started with question - why are gym TM duplicates so hard to come by, even by those who defeated respective gyms? The most obvious solutions would be either shopdrop them or allow a gym rematch.

The problem with the first is that it's... well, a shopdrop. I'd like to think we're all on the same page here, that it is better to earn something rather than throw a coin at it.

The problem with the latter is... everything organizatory, really. How would rematches work? How do we scale them without adding another load on the mods? How do we prevent people from just farming the TMs? My first idea was to make teams for each possible badge progress... which is a LOT of work, trying to manage it as new generations come, moves change and so on. There was also an idea of hard mode rematches for better rewards (perhaps better TMs? Gems, shards?).

Let's stir the pot together, friends

[Tiki]

chiming in.
so i think paying for it in shop is fine, but the price of convenience should be higher than sell price and marked with an * to say so. and the person need to have at least 1 more badge to buy it? this is to deter things like buying for another person or character

as for rematch, there's no way to predict what would nintendo or gamefreak do, but we can keep some moveset more or less the same. This might be better explained with table of brainstorming moves for the gym leaders. we can pull from the HG/SS rematch pokemon and scaled down the moves and levels for now and no need to include every new gen yet?

[AshenPhoenix]

I'm... honestly quite opposed to putting things in shops. I don't know, perhaps it's just me not liking grinding for money, I'd rather take a challenge to earn something, but that's just me, then.

I've put up a mock up of a normal rematch and a hard mode for Falkner.

Skarmory Sturdy Held Item: Quick Claw	Talonflame Flame Body Held Item: Wacan Berry
- Drill Peck - Iron Head - Spikes - Drill Run	- Aerial Ace - Flame Charge - Will-O-Wisp - U-Turn
Noctowl Insomnia Held Item: Metronome	Pidgeotto Keen Eye Held Item: Sharp Beak
- Hypnosis - Echoed Voice - Extrasensory - Air Cutter	- Aerial Ace - Giga Impact - U-Turn - Roost

Levels should match whichever gym player will be up against next. Evolutions are also dependent on level, so someone with 2 badges will be fighting Fletchinder and Pidgeotto instead. However, that would make certain moves illegal, such as Giga Impact on Pidgeotto. Of course, could switch that move for something else, though I'd really like the leader's ace packed a punch. Sadly, Pidgeot wasn't seen in 2 generations, so some newer TMs can't be used. Tried to make moves a little challenging but not too bad. Also, I think 4 Pokemon is a perfect number, so the fight doesn't go on forever.

Now, Hard Mode, which I feel should be quite challenging and also very rewarding. Not sure what rewards could be yet, though.

Corviknight Mirror Armor Held Item: Rocky Helmet	Noctowl Tinted Lens Held Item: Wide Lens	Kilowattrel Volt Absorb Held Item: Water Tera Shard
- Iron Defense - Body Press - Dual Wingbeat - Tailwind	- Hypnosis - Dream Eater - Air Slash - Hyper Voice	- Thunderbolt - Volt Stwitch - Air Slash - Tera Blast
Honchkrow Super Luck Held Item: Scope Lens	Pelipper Drizzle Held Item: Damp Rock	Mega Pidgeot Keen Eye//No Guard Held Item: Pidgeotite
- Night Slash - Sucker Punch - U-Turn - Drill Peck	- Hurricane - Hydro Pump - Tailwind - Supersonic	- Hurricane - Heat Wave - Roost - Hyper Beam

Yes, it is a nightmare of a team. Yes, it's meant to be this difficult. I tried to cover weaknesses as best I could. This battle would require to complete a normal rematch. It's meant to be a feat of strength for those of us wishing to push their teams to another level, it is entirely optional. 

That's all i got, looking for some input.

[Tiki]

Popping in from work to say we don’t have mega stone yet so to be fair with everyone that would have to be taken off

On surface the top 4 don’t look bad. We can just grab 3 of the mons if the player have less badges too instead of 4
Will give a detail look when I get chance and after work

[Lamont]

Popping by here with a thought more visible than secret-y chats like previous ;D

✔ On board with general idea of using Gym Rematches to redistribute TMs and potentially having additional, more valuable, TMs as options upon winning. These have been on the road map for a long time.

✔ Agree teams should absolutely not exceed 4 for a challenge (6 magikarps is fine :p). That includes hard mode. Is the idea we'd define a full team but it would work like the Underground Gauntlet, Olivine Cafe, Raids, etc. where only x-many (3?) would be used; TBD during the thread.

✔ Like using the canon rematches for team inspirations.
✖ To megas. Agree with Tiki we should leave megas out.
✔ Like the idea of multiple levels of difficulty.


Difficulty doesn't have to just come from movesets and levels. Restrictions can be imposed on the player too, which means that the gym leader doesn't have to take into consideration as many infinite possibilities for what is going to be coming at them. Some ideas being:

• Party composition
  Perhaps take a page from those members who've taken it upon themselves to impose limitations.
  Rematches could require that the player is using pokemon who are weak to the gym leader's main type, or are using the same type. Or perhaps they're not allowed to have any super effective moves. Things along that line. Prolly more on the latter since we have mono-type trainers to consider :3
  
  
• Environmental factors
  Could grab inspiration from the Sage Tower or our Weathers and introduce some permanent environment that supports the gym leader.
  

[Tiki]

So all of these move sets look great if the character had a lot of TM or even egg move or move tutor moves already like after gaining access to Ecruteak.

prior to Ecruteak a medium version would work. maybe like in the 60-70 move power range?

Re Lamont:
for the party composition challenge, it could also work by having people select an option for which mode and they can plan their team this way? :shrug:
The Pokemon could be level scaled +/- 3, with the signature Pokemon +3

Re Pixel below:
Middle difficulty for Bugsy could use Butterfree and Beedrill so those metapod and kakuna had some continuity?

[Pixel]

Hmmm, I don't have strong ideas for Falkner, as he's in general a pretty weak gym leader even with an improved team unless you severely handicap the player. But I do have an idea for Bugsy based off a couple gym posts I've read about sprinklers being in his gym. Which, duh, he has to have an awesome irrigation system with all those trees.

So, Bugsy rematch would have perma rain that /cannot/ be over ridden by weather moves/abilities. 

And his hard mode team would be based off his BW2 challenge team.

Ability: Technician  Item: Sitrus Berry or Occa Berry	Ability: Guts Item: Flame Orb	Ability: Sturdy Item: Apicot Berry or Occa Berry	Ability: Tinted Lens Item: Focus Sash
- Swords Dance - U-TurnTM - Aerial Ace / AcrobaticsTM - Bullet Punch	- Swords Dance - Rock SlideTM / Night SlashEM - Brick Break / Close CombatTM - Bug BiteTM / Megahorn	- Stealth RockTM - Toxic Spikes / Gyro Ball - Pain SplitTM - Explosion	- PsychicTM - Bug Buzz - Air Slash - Protect / Whirlwind / Hypnosis

[Lamont]

*random thought before bed*

Anyone remember Sky Battles?
Falkner idea? xD


Luv the sprinkler for Bugsy! Makes perfect sense.


I forgot to comment before, but in general Ashen your movesets look okay. I haven't gone terribly in depth with considering unoptimized match-ups though! (something slated for non-liquid brain once I clear this head cold) But a quick scan showed the general 'at least 1 non-damaging move' option. ;D

[antonius]

IF I remember right, the gyms in-game were only allowed after beating the Elite 4. If we had the Elite 4 up and running with members on their doorstep, we probably could get away with that same requirement. Since we don't, maybe someone has to be at least two badges ahead to challenge a previous gym. This would encourage people to go further into the site. As for Lamont asking about sky battles, I do remember them from Gen 6 because I thought they were annoying at first. To make things even harder, the rematch could also feature double battles which to my limited knowledge (no Switch based Pokemon games) none of the gym leaders have a double battle so it could make ours unique. I'm not sure if I would limit the number of Pokemon for the member but do agree with no more than 4 for the gym leader.

[Caramell 🍬]

I really like Anton's idea. Every +2 badges ahead of that Gym Leader, you can go back and challenge them. Tricky ones would be basically end-game Gym Leaders like Blackthorn but you can always just require Elite Four for anything past Cianwood, takes care of that pretty easily, I would think.

I also love the anime inspiration and varying degrees of difficulty for rechallenging. Another option I like is having options. Like at least a full team of six that's known about, even if the mod chooses say? .... 4~ out of them based on the level of difficulty the challenger was coming at them with? Might be harder and trickier but would also be challenging than "I already know what Pokemon you're using for this one, specific rematch, and have prepped my team accordingly". If we're careful to include a variety of Pokemon (secondary typing obviously on 'variety').

Most are experts in their fields. Bugsy has a whole a-- habitat for a gym in the anime. Clearly this guy's got more than 6 bugs on hand at all times. Why would I expect every rematch to be a (more or less) carbon copy?

[antonius]

I can see the gym leaders having a full team as optional but using only four of the six. Since mega are out, how about Z moves? I know that this isn't Alolan gym battles but who says the trial captains\gym leaders from Alola didn't teach a few things to the Jhoto group? The only question is how many members have access to their own Z moves. 

The challenge of using any permanent weather is matching up the gyms who aren't obvious. Morty would have foggy conditions due to having the fog badge but someone like Bugsy would be clear day(?). If we have troubles matching up weather with some of the gyms, we could give those gyms permanent terrain moves in play. In this case, Bugsy would have a permanent Grassy Terrain move which would be given depending on how his gym is described. I am at a loss for what Claire's weather or terrain move could be since dragon doesn't exactly fit anything.

[Tiki]

Returning to gym after earning two more is fine. Could been restrict it to like once a year so no hogging up 10 Roost TM.

I think Z move had been once per battle on zz

Let’s start with the first gym and make our way to the farthest anyone unlocked

We have weather, terrain, entry hazard, and field even. Maybe bugsy have “spikes” from fallen roof repairs, Morty had trick room because he read ancient shoddy curse out loud.