Quick run of Egg Tier Adjustments

[vartio]

To note, a lot of this will be looking at details like their evo levels, their general movelists in comparison to other lower tier mons, etc.

"Popularity" won't count *as* much, although for all purposes the current T5s are 'unassailable' even in my view.

I will be using 4 main criteria:
A: The Pokemon's general fanbase popularity | A2: The Pokemon's Competitive viability (arguably more important. IE: Finizen/Palafin would be T5 on this alone due to how much it bunker busted the meta)
B: The Pokemon's Evolution Level/Condition (higher conditions = lower Tier in my view)
C: The Pokemon's available moveset and how early they access a good STAB move. (Getting an 80 STAB for example under level 20 would be crazy and likely rise tier up)

Using this as a basis in this situation my suggestions can be summarized as:

T1/T2: Absolutely pitiful pokemon that won't see use except for theming or early parts of a journey. IE: Rattata, Caterpie/Butterfree, Pidgey/Pidgeot, etc.
T3: Pokemon that should start out weak with powerful moves, but become 'useable' but non-competent at high-end battles by mid-late game, or pokemon who evolve into a comparable pokemon early on (IE: Golett is useless until evolving into Golurk at the 40s as type 1; then Clefairy/Hypno as the 2nd type) 
T4: pokemon that either become VERY Strong mid-late game with the right strategy; or start out as extremely powerful pokemon that fall off over time (IE: Honedge/Aegislash for the first type, Veluza for the 2nd type)
T5: Pokemon that are absolutely meant to be and stay rare, or are so meta-defining that they need to be limited (IE: Eevee, Pseudos Basic-stages, Gimmighoul)

Opening up is the Pokemon that made me want to make this adjustment topic:

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Golett  (T4 -> T3)
Let's get this elephant out of the room. Either Gastly needs a tier up, or Golett needs a tier down. Maybe both. The issue is that both are EXTREMELY weak pokemon on their own right (310 Base for Gastly... and 303 for Golett). This alone would put them the same tier.

But Golett has one advantage Gastly doesn't: better moves at earlier levels (Gastly gets Hex at 24 and Shadow Ball at 40; Golett gets Shadow Punch at 12 and Stomping Tantrum at 24 - both arguably better moves). 

On the flip side, Gastly gets 2 things Golett won't early: Evolutions and thus stats. Not only that, Gastly evolves into Gengar - one of the 'eternal greats' of the game that's been useful in most generations. Gastly can evolve into Haunter at 25 and Gengar by 35 with an item. Golett requires staying at a Gastly tier... until 43.

If someone wants a Golett early they'd have at most a 70 ATK base pokemon early, with a decent move by 12 but not much else. Meanwhile Gastly has a 100 SpAtk base and 80 Speed and those early evolutions. Gastly would require a TM's investment to be useful at the same point, but really, with Hex being a Quest and RT reward, Sludge Bomb for RT, and the absurdly strong Gunk Shot for RT, Gastly isn't starving for options. 

All is to say: Golett's objectively a weaker, and less popular pokemon (not only competitively, but otherwise). While it is 'rarer', that's simply because there's yet to be an update for location, and wherever it goes, it's likely not going to be more than a common (or early zone quest) considering it's got the stats of an early game mon. Games have shown it appearing between Canyonous/Mountaintous terrains, or near ruins, placing it either near Blackthorn or the Ruins of Alpha, which while viable near Blackthorne to be closer to 43, doesn't excuse this is egg tiering which involves the torture of leveling one 42 levels. Pure torture for those who want to raise a pokemon.

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Elgyem (T4 -> T3)

Almost everything said about Golett applies here. At a 335 stat total, it is barely better than Gastly/Golett, and to my knowledge has never seen any form of serious use in any fashion. It arguably gets it worse with only one STAB (Psybeam) naturally at 18, and a level 42 evolution point. 

There really isn't much more to say. While like Golett it's currently unavailable, when added it's also likely to be a common wherever it shows up, even if later on simply because it's an odd Pokemon with a penchant for Ruins, Mountains, and Bridges. 

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Finizen/Gimighoul (T4 -> T5)

Let's address these Titans in the room. These two make up two of the strongest pokemon of the current generation, with Palafin having singlehandedly busted the meta on release. Gimmighoul made up a serious presence too, and both were popular in their own right. While more are available here, there's little denying both are powerhouse pokemon with powerful abilities and resistances. Both are currently event only, but even in the public they are both far more oppressive existences than Gengar was. Neither's evolution methods are complicated either.

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Veluza (T1 -> T4)

Scanned down and saw this atrocity in location almost instantly. Let's address this: It's the same tier of stats as Absol (although lacking a Mega, which doesn't matter) - 478 vs Absol's 465. Its got a 60 from the first 10 levels, and 70s up to 45 where it gets an 85 STAB. Absol gets its 70 STAB at 30 (65 at 10 - the especially powerful Knock Off at that). But Veluza's Aqua Cutter (a 25 Move) becomes a 112/113 with its Hidden Ability - which is far more consistent - and has an increased Crit Rate.

Generally Veluza screams a far more powerful mon than Absol. Putting them on the same tier seems ideal, and likely would be an SOS or Rare Mon in the water.

(Edit/Note): Comparable, one can compare it to Heracross, who's a T3. Heracross' strongest move is a 60-Power Aerial Ace at 15, and doesn't get stronger until 30 where it gains Brick Break (75 Power). Veluza gets Aqua Cutter (70) at 25, but otherwise normally lacks such power moves until then unless you use Aqua Pulse. In this instance we could raise Veluza to T3 as they're mostly comparable.

To make a point moment I saw it was a T1 I asked for a trade of one or its egg to get it before making this suggestion because T1 is frankly absolutely frickin' absurd and anyone who missed it on its event was missing one of the best mons available for no RT. 

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Mareep (T1 -> T2)

Let's quickly address - Ampharos is a decently useful pokemon. Middle of the Pack. It also belongs to a VERY popular family (who can resist the urge to squeeze a Mareep?). If somehow Megas are added, then the presence of Mega Ampharos would likely lend to it being a T3 instead (maybe even T4 since it has a Dragon-type Mega).

If Commonness was the reason it's T1, we really need a better scale for deciding Tiers, because this is almost painfully funny as the conditions seem enforced arbitrarily especially after Veluza

=====================================================

Paldean Tauros Variants (T3 -> T4)

Let's start with the obvious: these are 490 base stat monstrosities. They got Intimidate too. These are not small things, especially to be born out of an egg. A 30x2 STAB at level 10 is a bit oppressive. While it will fall off later on as "Stage 2" Evolutions hit around the time of Raging Bull, it is still a powerful pokemon for a fresh account to obtain. This is the same issue as Veluza tbh.

=====================================================

Scyther (T3 -> T4)

Continuing the Veluza/Paldean Tauros issue comes Scyther, who comes out at 500 base with the POWERFUL Fury Cutter at 4 and Wing Attack at 12. With False Swipe it becomes a machine at capturing low levels too, which makes rookies able to more safely capture pokemon. And this is without evolving it into the superior Scizor or Kleavor. Too versatile and too powerful for early game, and while it will struggle a LITTLE at first Gym, it also has the speed and ATK to make up for it and do considerable damage all the same.

=====================================================

Galarian Mr Mime (T3 -> T4)

Remember we juuuust spoke about how Scyther and crew could be an issue? Now imagine that at level 2 but more terrifying.

Breed a Mime Jr with Mimic, give them an Ice Stone, then level them once. You now have a level 2 Mr Rime, a 520 Base with Dazzling Gleam available thanks to Rime's movelist including it at level 1 via relearner. May cost the recipient a little extra, but they can now basically walk over the competition with their 110 SpAtk and potential Nasty Plot TM. This is not Kosher.

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Probably a few I'm missing, but these are the ones I could pick out near instantly off the top of my head as problem mons. Others I've consider 'potential' problems, but I digress. 500 stat pokemon before the first gym are things I'd TRY to avert as much as possible as they'd make things too easy.

[AshenPhoenix]

The problem is, Scarlet and Violet threw out of window any sense when it comes to rarities. The best measure to count rarity and availability is by either pokemon's native game (and even that is hard to grade correctly, again, with Scarlet and Violet) or it's availability in Hg/SS. Finizen or Gimmighoul by no means fit T5, as they're extremely easily available, just tough to evolve, they're fine in T4. I can see the case for Gollet, Elgyem and Tauros, the rest seems to be... slightly unreasonable.

[vartio]

Apr 9, 2024 18:51:58 GMT 11 AshenPhoenix said:

The problem is, Scarlet and Violet threw out of window any sense when it comes to rarities. The best measure to count rarity and availability is by either pokemon's native game (and even that is hard to grade correctly, again, with Scarlet and Violet) or it's availability in Hg/SS. Finizen or Gimmighoul by no means fit T5, as they're extremely easily available, just tough to evolve, they're fine in T4. I can see the case for Gollet, Elgyem and Tauros, the rest seems to be... slightly unreasonable.

We still have 'rarity' %s that are provided roughly by nintendo for those games. But the rarity in those games don't matter as much as their rarity for this site and/or power tiers.

Even ignoring that, there's the fact of letting people access to easily evolvable (especially Gimmi who can do it at level 7!), power-mons who can easily 'break' not just the early 'game' of the site, but perhaps just trivialize more. Palafin and Gholdengo are both absolute beast of mons who defined the early ScVi Meta (and still do!). Letting players at them en masse will literally break the spine of balance and make it mostly a breeze.

Of these two, Palafin in particular has a 650 base - *higher* than a Pseudo. And unlike Slaking, this isn't exactly a gimmick that required another gimmick to overcome.

================================================
For Veluza, Mr Rime, Scyther:

We need to remember that for the most point as well, 470-550 Stat is usually the range of non-pseudo stage 2 evos (IE: Charizard), with exceptions (IE: Slaking). Scyther and Absol are both Rares, Mime Jr a Casino only (should be a 4+ to begin with), and Veluza atm is event only. Okay, these share a lot of traits. These pokemon all share rough power levels (470-520). This matters because a team of such pokemon would carry the average newbie account until roughly Pryce when they begin getting similar power of pokemon (First Gym to have all 450+ Mons). Imagine that, a team of Egged pokemon you don't need to evolve, worry about evolving (Scizor and Kleavor have same stat totals but diff pools), strong moves that are usually obtained early-ish, etc.

Scyther is a VERY popular mon to begin with. To my knowledge every kid since Gen 1 saw Scythe Bug and went nuts for that thing. It wasn't competitive but it didn't need to be to be a fan favorite.

Pokemon at the lower end of a stage 2 evo (Pidgeot is a 479, for reference; and Gengar's a 500), available out of the gate, with competent moves (Pidgeot either requires finnagling to get moves above 60 Power, or REALLY late levels. Part of why it's Tier 1 I presume). THAT is not a good thing to let players obtain effortlessly, imo. It marginalizes the overall journey difficulty. Most of your enemies will not be packing 3 Pokemon with 450+ Stats, and you can obtain likewise 3+ Pokemon with 450-550 easily without spending an RT. That is a big deal.


Comparing these to Pokemon who need to evolve is usually folly. That's still 20-40 levels where comparable/'better' pokemon are likely still in their Basic/Stage 1 states, and thus lack the moves and/or stats to compare to these T3 Powerhouses. There's a few exceptions who likely need bolstering like Crabrawler/Crabdominable, and a few others I'm missing, who are capable of similar hijynx. Of these Mr Rime requires the most effort (Breeding an Egg move and getting an Ice Stone) but gets Dazzling Gleam - a move excellent for double battles (Where and when THAT matters) that's an 80 Damage STAB. But the key here's a different point on top of this: This one should be up there simply because Jr's a Coin prize! Y'know where it's relative "Porygon" is who also requires Coins? T4. Why is Mime Jr not there with it? 

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TL;Dr: These mons all break or severely stress the 'spine' of the site's balance, and would marginalize even challenges like Whitney. Could you imagine being able to walk into Whitney with Gholdengo, resisting her and completely humiliating that Miltank? How about Morty with all these mons? It would be a massacre.

[AshenPhoenix]

You're breaking it down to stats, which are a SMALL part of what makes Tiers. Gimmighoul being a T4 is probably not that easily accessible (well, not accessible at all currently), and their evolution will take a LOT of work, same with Finizen. And if someone after all that manages to obtain and evolve them... why not let them have fun with it? Notice, for example, that Grafaiai is a T3 (was T4 before we had a discussion), even though it's not a good Pokemon competitively. I do take part in competitive part of games a lot and I do have a good awarness what is and isn't used. Yes, these Pokemon are good, but they require a lot of work, too and I fully expect, when they're fully available, to be just as much work here, which I don't see why we would not reward it.

Scyther is fine where it is. It's been like that for many years and I don't see everyone running a Scyther, it wasn't and isn't breaking anything. Same with Tauros, of which Paldean ones were available only for event and are currently only available by breeding those that were purchased. Many people did and again, it's not a staple of every team.

[vartio]

Apr 9, 2024 20:37:33 GMT 11 AshenPhoenix said:

You're breaking it down to stats, which are a SMALL part of what makes Tiers. Gimmighoul being a T4 is probably not that easily accessible (well, not accessible at all currently), and their evolution will take a LOT of work, same with Finizen. And if someone after all that manages to obtain and evolve them... why not let them have fun with it? Notice, for example, that Grafaiai is a T3 (was T4 before we had a discussion), even though it's not a good Pokemon competitively. I do take part in competitive part of games a lot and I do have a good awarness what is and isn't used. Yes, these Pokemon are good, but they require a lot of work, too and I fully expect, when they're fully available, to be just as much work here, which I don't see why we would not reward it.

Scyther is fine where it is. It's been like that for many years and I don't see everyone running a Scyther, it wasn't and isn't breaking anything. Same with Tauros, of which Paldean ones were available only for event and are currently only available by breeding those that were purchased. Many people did and again, it's not a staple of every team.

If that's the case why's Absol (465) a T4 when it's not that 'powerful'? Why's Durant (484 total)(who is hilariously renown for being bad AND unpopular)? Eiscue (470)? Heatmor (484)?  None of these bar Absol are 'especially' popular, and if site rarity was everything then Scyther is of the same rarity as Absol and it's a T3 as is, and one of the more Popular Gen 1 Pokemon (likely as. Technically Scyther's rarer - it doesn't appear outside of 'special' locales like the Safari Zone).

So either the system used for designating their Tiers is being used with no actual measuring stick, or different sticks are being used based on some semi-arbitrary basis and not using the sticks as a whole. Popularity isn't it as established with Heatmor and Durant (Meanwhile Pinsir, who consistently top 20s for Kanto, isn't T4 but those two are). It isn't ZapZu Johto rarity as established with Scyther and Veluza. It isn't game rarity as established by Scyther vs Absol (Absol isn't that rare once you CAN catch it, Scyther is rarer within the BCC in the games). 

If this was based on overall popularity, Rockruff, Mimikyu, and Shinx would all be T4 minimum as their evos were globally amongst the rather consistently most popular pokemon (see: bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9mon_of_the_Year ). Yet that isn't the case, as seen with Rockruff at the least even being uncommon and T2 - meaning popularity isn't that big a measuring stick. Yet Riolu/Lucario's a T5 on sole basis of being one of if not the most popular pokemon even if it's not the strong (RU in Sword/Shield, NU in ScVi). So again - the scales are absolutely mismanaged.

How about 'staple of teams', as you said? When were Fossil Pokemon ever a staple outside of Twitch Plays Pokemon? Tyrantrum and Cradily are the only fossils that saw popularity. They're there because they're Zapdos Zulu rare and require 'events' to obtain. Namely Digs, which cost a ton of RT. That's it.

So those are there because they're Zapdos Zulu Rare. Reasonable. Beldum? A trade (admittably for mods only, so let's just count that as a Trade-In type ala Porygon/Mime Jr). For a Forretress. Not exactly on the same level of 'rarity', now is it? Okay, it's in an essence a 'Quest' Rare, right? How about Honedge who's a QUEST Rare? T4. Honedge is the pre-evolve of Aegislash, who is consistently Top 15 Kalos and appeared in the Top list for all regions one year that the Bulbapedia lists. What never showed on the 'global' list of popularity? Metagross. 
 
Okay, this establishes that it's about Zapdos Zulu rarity right? That means T5s shouldn't be catcha-

...okay that admittably is a SINGULAR exception to all the T5s. Still points out that the entire system isn't exactly consistently managed.

Well what about the T4 eggs? All the remaining events or undecided right? Annnnd there's Veluza Vaulting into T1... 

My point is it's a mess, and honestly the whole system needs a more proper scaling because this is honestly not looking organized. Because clearly 'staple', 'popularity' (bar a couple), etc, don't actually matter as to these rankings.

EDIT: To be clear, my view is whatever the team did, they picked a random arbitrary standard, and decided for each pokemon 'yeah this pokemon's this, let's make it T4/T5'. But that's ridiculous on its foundation when comparing as noted - IE: Lucario and Eevee are T5 due to popularity but Rockruff Shinx and Mimikyu aren't T4. In fact Mimikyu alone should be T5 and out of the Casino simply because it **consistently** rated higher than Lucario based on the same arbitrary scaling!

The system needs to be redone with a multiple-scale system, and the more of those scales a Pokemon met, the higher the rarity. But that's just me.

[Professor Oak]

I'm really not the best placed to comment since I've been out of the loop and haven't played any of the actual games past maybe Gen 3. However, I was responsible for some of the initial development behind the breeding system. I will say firstly for a site completely run by volunteers and with the tiering system not backed by or affiliated with Nintendo or mirroring any of the in-game mechanics, it's always going to be a very subjective and arbitrary process. In the initial development phase of the system in 2015, it was very much just me deciding on whim where Pokemon should sit within the Tiers so I guess you can blame me for some of the early Gen decisions although there was input from other staff.

Factors we typically take into account include rarity within the games, relative strength/competitive viability and availability during the early, mid or later portions of the game's story line. And these factors are considered with respect to the original game the Pokemon debuted in leading to decisions such as Feebas sitting in Tier 5 because of how difficult it was encounter (exclusive to 3 fishing tiles) in the original Gen 3 game. Although I never personally saw popularity as an important factor, it is still sometimes discussed and considered in the decision-making. With all these different criteria, we don't really have a way to weight the relative importance of each one or have some sort of standardised model or formula as you are suggesting of determining the tiers.

But to be fair, there has been considerably more staff discussion and quality assurance in recent years compared to the beginning when most of my ideas and decisions were implemented unchallenged. So I will note that the Gen IX integration project was a vast undertaking with decisions around breeding tiers being only a small facet. There was considerable discussion within the staff board around where the new Pokemon should be sorted and it's still being refined to this day. We also are aware that the Gen IX encounters work differently to previous gens where rarity and linearity of progression no longer can be reliably used as factors.

We really welcome feedback from all our members and especially appreciate when it is constructive with detailed reasoning behind it as you have provided! ^^ I am somewhat convinced that Veluza deserves to be bumped up a tier or two. However, I feel some of your other suggestions are at the margins. For some Pokemon it is very clear cut where they should go such as pseudo legendaries in Tier 5 or starters in Tier 4. Whether Finizen and Gimmighoul deserve to be in Tier 5 or not is really up for debate. I sometimes think if there is a really great quest that forms a milestone in the character's story arc such as Lapras or Larvesta then it deserves to be in Tier 5 so they don't get proliferated too widely and easily and nullify the whole purpose of that quest. At the moment no such quests are planned for these two although there's no reason there can't be anything created for them in the future - it's more of a resourcing issue. On the flip side though there may be some reasons why a popular or strong Pokemon should sit in a lower Tier. For example, Finizen is unique in that it's evo is linked to Group RPs so if by making it somewhat more accessible, it encourages more character development and interaction or through its popularity attracts more members to the site, that in itself is not a bad thing.

But the main barrier to developing a more vigorous and methodical system is really just a resourcing thing. We are currently understaffed so have to prioritise what is most important. With the Gen IX integration largely complete we are shifting our focus to making these Pokemon available through standard encounters and further discussion around the tiering sits within the fine-tuning basket. Doesn't mean we won't or can't look into it especially if there is an obvious flaw but it may not in itself be site-breaking. With the ever increasing number of Pokemon, abilities and items being introduced it no longer makes sense to try and base tiering on how it will affect the gameplay and how easily people with beat the gyms with each of these Pokemon. For example, because of typing Orthworm will resist most of what Bugsy can throw at the player but it doesn't mean we need to elevate it to Tier 4 or 5.

Anyway those were just my two cents on this and to hopefully give an insight into how and why the breeding and tiering system was so designed - to help regulate availability and supply to mirror the games and to form a foundation for an appropriate rewards systems to promote activity such as modding, recruitment and general RP progress. On a general note, I always like to point out the best way to influence change is to sign up for staff and putting your hand up for projects and lead discussions on these topics. No obligations to but just want to highlight the ad hoc nature or arbitrariness of certain systems is really just a reflection that it's a volunteer run site and created just for fun!

[Tiki]

I’ve talked in chat box before for moving beehyem down because it’s neither popular nor its move pool is useful.
Here’s my vote for it

Mareep can go up to tier 2 too.

[Pixel]

We've recently made a few adjustment to the tiers since the festival and introducing gen 9. However, as has already been explained, power level and rarity and popularity and progression all play a role. Not every T1 pokemon is going to be a useless basket of noodles and not ever T5 will be a pseudo legend. The tiers aren't arbitrary, however, as has been explained to me in the past, pokemon usually change tiers based on what is healthiest for the site. 

Some pokemon were in lower tiers until people bred the bejeesus out of them and they became too common for their power level. Some pokemon were in higher tiers and were dropped when re-evaluated after watching their effect in the meta.

Generally, T5s are what would be considered 1 time encounters in games or what are perceived would be if pokemon still did those. lol. Stuff like fossils and gift pokemon that in later gens did become grass encounters...but were originally 'unique'. The fossils aren't super strong, but they shouldn't be so common that every trainer has one.

T3-T4 has a more ambiguous threshold, and there are some I think should be dropped (because solrock and lunatone are just dex filler tbf). BUT, a higher tier does ensure they stay less common. Think Starters or pokemon that in their original game maybe had a singular location they appeared in, or some weird mechanic behind it. I believe all dragons also start in this tier, regardless of viability.

Now, all this said...the tiers only matter when making trades or breeding. Because T4/T5s require RTs. To say something should be a bumped up to a T4/T5, you're saying, this pokemon should require extra resources and time to breed and hatch so that it minimizes its impact on the site. If you don't, it'll be so popular it'll proliferate and become unhealthy for the site meta. Veluza is not one of those pokemon. ^_^; Glad you love it so much, but most folks aren't hype to try to smash the game with it. 

As for its T1 placement. I'd honestly take a huge power azumarill over veluza, which is also a T1. Most people don't bother raising magikarps, but we all know how awesome gyarados is in a playthrough of the game and they make quite a show in raids as well here. ^_- 

Lots of factors to consider. And staff does actually talk about it quite a bit. We'll continue to observe and see if Veluza needs to be bumped up to 2 or 3 in the future. 

[Tiki]

Might as well: in game egg steps to hatch pokemon as a consideration. 🤷‍♂️ see magikarp and caterpie

[vartio]

Apr 10, 2024 2:27:16 GMT 11 Professor Oak said:

I'm really not the best placed to comment since I've been out of the loop and haven't played any of the actual games past maybe Gen 3. However, I was responsible for some of the initial development behind the breeding system. I will say firstly for a site completely run by volunteers and with the tiering system not backed by or affiliated with Nintendo or mirroring any of the in-game mechanics, it's always going to be a very subjective and arbitrary process. In the initial development phase of the system in 2015, it was very much just me deciding on whim where Pokemon should sit within the Tiers so I guess you can blame me for some of the early Gen decisions although there was input from other staff.

Factors we typically take into account include rarity within the games, relative strength/competitive viability and availability during the early, mid or later portions of the game's story line. And these factors are considered with respect to the original game the Pokemon debuted in leading to decisions such as Feebas sitting in Tier 5 because of how difficult it was encounter (exclusive to 3 fishing tiles) in the original Gen 3 game. Although I never personally saw popularity as an important factor, it is still sometimes discussed and considered in the decision-making. With all these different criteria, we don't really have a way to weight the relative importance of each one or have some sort of standardised model or formula as you are suggesting of determining the tiers.

But to be fair, there has been considerably more staff discussion and quality assurance in recent years compared to the beginning when most of my ideas and decisions were implemented unchallenged. So I will note that the Gen IX integration project was a vast undertaking with decisions around breeding tiers being only a small facet. There was considerable discussion within the staff board around where the new Pokemon should be sorted and it's still being refined to this day. We also are aware that the Gen IX encounters work differently to previous gens where rarity and linearity of progression no longer can be reliably used as factors.

We really welcome feedback from all our members and especially appreciate when it is constructive with detailed reasoning behind it as you have provided! ^^ I am somewhat convinced that Veluza deserves to be bumped up a tier or two. However, I feel some of your other suggestions are at the margins. For some Pokemon it is very clear cut where they should go such as pseudo legendaries in Tier 5 or starters in Tier 4. Whether Finizen and Gimmighoul deserve to be in Tier 5 or not is really up for debate. I sometimes think if there is a really great quest that forms a milestone in the character's story arc such as Lapras or Larvesta then it deserves to be in Tier 5 so they don't get proliferated too widely and easily and nullify the whole purpose of that quest. At the moment no such quests are planned for these two although there's no reason there can't be anything created for them in the future - it's more of a resourcing issue. On the flip side though there may be some reasons why a popular or strong Pokemon should sit in a lower Tier. For example, Finizen is unique in that it's evo is linked to Group RPs so if by making it somewhat more accessible, it encourages more character development and interaction or through its popularity attracts more members to the site, that in itself is not a bad thing.

But the main barrier to developing a more vigorous and methodical system is really just a resourcing thing. We are currently understaffed so have to prioritise what is most important. With the Gen IX integration largely complete we are shifting our focus to making these Pokemon available through standard encounters and further discussion around the tiering sits within the fine-tuning basket. Doesn't mean we won't or can't look into it especially if there is an obvious flaw but it may not in itself be site-breaking. With the ever increasing number of Pokemon, abilities and items being introduced it no longer makes sense to try and base tiering on how it will affect the gameplay and how easily people with beat the gyms with each of these Pokemon. For example, because of typing Orthworm will resist most of what Bugsy can throw at the player but it doesn't mean we need to elevate it to Tier 4 or 5.

Anyway those were just my two cents on this and to hopefully give an insight into how and why the breeding and tiering system was so designed - to help regulate availability and supply to mirror the games and to form a foundation for an appropriate rewards systems to promote activity such as modding, recruitment and general RP progress. On a general note, I always like to point out the best way to influence change is to sign up for staff and putting your hand up for projects and lead discussions on these topics. No obligations to but just want to highlight the ad hoc nature or arbitrariness of certain systems is really just a reflection that it's a volunteer run site and created just for fun!

Hi, and thanks for your reply! It is interesting to see that some of what staff have been saying ended up confused, misinterpreted, or just wrong. IE: A few assured Riolu/Lucario's Tier was due to its popularity, not due to anything else, which lead to that dire misconception.

Since you're open to this, I'll give a few shots back as to some of your major points:

>About Gen IX

While yes, linearity has gone the way of the Doduo for the most part, there is still 'rarity tiers' of sorts that have been confirmed/tracked via datamining/etc, mentioned on sites like Serebii and Bulbapedia. 

>Finizen and Gimmighoul

So to this end, I think you got a point about Finizen. The more I think about Palafin, it's closer to a T3 at most based on my own earlier observations. Level 38 isn't a small level to take a 315 stat total through. And getting it evolved while easy will take a lot of effort just to prepare. I would imagine Route 41 as an uncommon while surfing would work, alternatively making it a quest that you find one beached near Olivine City that was left behind by its migrating pack at some point. (Which would fit as Bottle Nose Dolphins which the Fin duo are based on do migrate alone the shores the long way like that - 0701.static.prezi.com/preview/v2/xbwmb7hikjgfebahdktcpr77il6jc3sachvcdoaizecfr3dnitcq_3_0.png ).
In both these scenarios, the Finizen would be likely be about level 30. Eight levels short of evolving.

With the above, and in consideration of your view/advice we could list Finizen as a T4 if it's a simple wild catch, or a T5 if a Quest. In this view, T4 and Wild would probably be the best choice, as there's nothing 'special' about catching it in the games, and helps prevent someone getting some crazy power-leveling ideas to get a free Pseudo-Legendary class partner. 


Gimmighoul I would also make a suggestion to make it more interesting. Make Gimmighoul a Pokemon someone can pick via a quest at the outside/entrance of Ruins of Alph that involves encountering one, to at least have it make sense it's able to evolve soon as level 7, but its evolution coin an exclusive escapade which requires said Gimmighoul to go on a journey in Roaming Forme, which includes a challenge of some sort (IE: A # of Stars minimum?). Make each Treasure Coin something unique to that individual in this way.
In ScVi, Gimmighoul were found at the towers, aka 'spoken' encounters akin to Lapras. This already should raise them to Quest/'Rare' Status. Then you had to hunt them over and over to obtain the Treasure Coins - a Quest unto itself. This matches the T5 conditions almost perfectly. Rather than obviously having players have to farm for 100 treasure coins, making the 'completion' an Escapade feels more fitting. 

As a note - Users could probably choose to freely swap between Chest and Roaming Formes until they evolve it, not that many would use it much pre-evo, mind you. This isn't linked to Pokemon Go, afterall. 


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>"For example, because of typing Orthworm will resist most of what Bugsy can throw at the player but it doesn't mean we need to elevate it to Tier 4 or 5."

This is why I mainly focused on long-term 'destruction' of the balance. To give a point: I noted to Ashen that Stage 2 Evolutions tend to start about 450 stat range with exceptions (IE: butterfree isn't even a 400 total). The pokemon I listed in particular are non-Evolving Pokemon whose stat totals are close to, nearly/are equal, if not outstrip the majority of Gym Leader Pokemon if not their aces. This isn't pokemon able to beat the tar out of one gym, but with even 2 can crush most gyms.

IE: I noted Scyther is a 500 total, and Bugsy has one. Miltank is a 490 whose bulky stats know where they need to be, and has the ferocious Rollout. Now imagine players with access to Miltanks who started at a roughly free-hit (60 base) on their every move. It does absolutely power creep alternatives. Part of their challenge is that you likely will need super-effective mons for them to conventionally not walk over a team made without trades. They're both still terrifying. And their challenge becomes a deal lighter when you have a Fire/Fighting Paldean Tauros able to walk over the competition. Oh it does a little struggle with Falkner, but would curb Bugsy, Whitney, then put up a fair challenge vs Morty & Chuck (struggle on Poliwrath though), and absolutely steamroll Jasmine, before walking over Pryce too, for example. 

Veluza is in a similar Vein: it will struggle on Bugsy defensively (but still likely KO if not severely injure not only Scyther but everything leading up to it) but still be able to beat Falkner, Whitney (oh poor Whitney, Rock vs Water...), struggle on Morty (Psychic vs Ghost), beat Chuck up for his Lunch Money (Resists his damage, still has ol' Pluck though!), Jasmine would be splashed on by Sharpness+Aqua Cutter, and Pryce would also suffer to it. Now Claire would be a minor issue (forcing Claire to Hyper Beam to do much of anything) until Gyarados.

A single Pokemon could hold its own vs a majority of the individual mons of 6 gyms in theory. Bugsy is a mid-tier threat because of Pluck (120 Base) while Bugsy would need 2 turns to deal comparable damage with successive Fury Cutter. (80 base Super-Effective -> 160 = 240; two plucks). The 2nd Fury Cutter would likely be the decider - if Veluza survives that one thanks to Plucking Bugsy's Sitrus Berry or it missing, Veluza can win. Even if it don't, it takes one good fire type to tank that Fury Cutter and finish it off by that point. (Bonus points if that's the Galarian Fire Tauros). All from a Pokemon considered a 'Tier 1'.

Having a 470-520 stat total early is akin to having Falkner's 'Cheat' Pidgeotto in your Party as a Pidgeot (Base 349, for ref Pidgeot's a base 469! Comparable to Veluza who's the lowest stat total of the suggested I gave). An evolved Pokemon early that shouldn't be available, and to make it worse, unlike Pidgeotto, these have competent moves out of the gate in the ~5-10 level range with 60+ Base, wherein Pidgeotto's lucky to have a 40. The power disparity is unreal in that way.

If someone wants to have that sort of power advantage and marginalize their adventure, it really shouldn't come so easily, and require RT for the Egg from others. Yes, starting even 2nd gym they begin giving the gym leaders 500 base pokemon, but conventionally the player didn't get something comparable in the site (at least excluding evolutions) until after beating Bugsy and catching a rare Sigilyph at the Ruins of Alph (a 490 base, which is a rather 'simple' Pokemon with only really 2 damage types, but counts) or the oppressive Heracross after Bugsy if you got a 'mon with Headbutt. That's 2 gyms that are easily 'cheapskated'. 

But that's my view.

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Now addressing Pixel...

>"However, as has already been explained, power level and rarity and popularity and progression all play a role."

Didn't it just get explained by Oak that popularity was never intended to be a measuring stick...? Anyhow, digressing from that...

>"Generally, T5s are what would be considered 1 time encounters in games or what are perceived would be if pokemon still did those. lol."

They still have 'interactable' Pokemon like Gimmighoul, so it does still apply to a degree. Although they mostly made that sort into the Tera Pokemon.

>"T3-T4 has a more ambiguous threshold, and there are some I think should be dropped (because solrock and lunatone are just dex filler tbf)."

Wait wh- you're j- *looks* WHY!? They've never been that rare to begin with! 20% is not that low a # compared to the atrocity that is a Scyther!

I agree they can drop to T3 well enough.

>"As for its T1 placement. I'd honestly take a huge power azumarill over veluza, which is also a T1. Most people don't bother raising magikarps, but we all know how awesome gyarados is in a playthrough of the game and they make quite a show in raids as well here. ^_-"

Both of which involve using time to raise and evolve pokemon with vastly more defined weaknesses/limitations. Azumarill has an issue in it lacks any form of ability because its ability is making up for its 50 base ATK stat. Compare to Veluza's Mold Breaker (deals with Sturdy strats for example) or Sharpness (makes it into one of the stronger CritMons). Comparatively, this would be giving Azumarill a 100 Base * 135 (STAB 90) vs a Veluza's 102 Base * 157.5 (70 (Psycho/Aqua Cut) * 1.5 (Sharpness) * 1.5 (STAB)), or to put into simple Terms: Azumarill's 13,500 (Pre-Mit) vs Veluza's 16,065 Damage. And Veluza gets those extra crits. Azumarill still loses, hard. 

Azumarill basically starts losing at level 25. Wins from 18-25. Azumarill better survive after that Belly Drum and taking 2 hits with that atrocious speed stat.

Gyarados is a leveling evolution requirer, and has a far more deadly weakness than the rest of this discussion. Namely: Electric. That said, if someone wants to handicap themselves by spending time leveling Magikarp, that's the reward. You don't need to 'spend that time' with Veluza. It's good out the gate, and that's the big point I'm making here. That these mons I listed evolve too easily, have too much stats, and basically marginalize the game.

[Pixel]

You miiiight wanna re-check the movesets and level caps for the gyms. Bugsy doesn't have fury cutter. ^_^ You also can't access Veluza's superior ability in sharpness until Morty, at which point, quests and such do push for higher value moves and teams. I still don't agree that Veluza is a game breaking sweeper, especially as we do update trainer movesets as new games release in order to balance teams vs power creep. But perhaps you can change our mind in play~

We have heavy hitters like Gallade and Arcanine and Gyarados running around that aren't breaking the game by being available before Whitney. Sure, they make Falkner a cake walk, but that's just Falkner. Lol. Bugsy is where the difficulty curve spikes and you need some strategy over brute force.

[Lamont]

I haven't the brain to get through all this atm (headache), but we already have Gimmighoul's evo planned and available via the special shop in Whirl Islands. So you would need to reach Cianwood to gain access to the evolution if you weren't relying on anyone else to get it for you.


I also wanna point out that we are a roleplay. We're not here to reach perfect mechanical balance between 1000 pokemon and a bijillion combinations of abilities and movesets and all kinds of stuff. We're not a competitive play battle sim and are poorly suited for it. Do we do some minor considerations for trying to create some kinda of challenge at a casual level; yeah. Do we try and keep an accessibility balance to keep there being something to continue working for as you get further in the RP; yes.

But we're a casual RP. People are making characters with pokemon that suit their character or just playing around with things there's no reason to do so with during a playthrough of the games. There is a lot more play with non-competitive/OP/powerhouses/etc than you see in just a pokemon game.

The Tiers are important to keep things from flooding the site and have things to strive toward with a mimicry of the games. It's not perfect and never will be. But neither are the game's balances. Scyther is a great example of something that has been this way for 15 years and I see no reason to change it at this moment. It's certainly not harming any balances :p As mentioned by someone further up the thread sometimes the tiers reflect things happening on forum if there's any sort of abuse or drastic change in something's accessibility. Also, the regional variants follow a system as laid out in the breeding guides; they're linked to their base forms so individually adjusting them to break those rules makes things just overall harder to remember.