On Co-Starring

[vartio]

As the guinea pig of the co-star system, I need to post this out as I feel the system, while fundamentally amazing, has a few flaws.

A: While the relevant info is available here and there, information pertinent to, and important to, the system itself should be available inside the topic as a 2nd post. This is because a LOT of this info is in forums/etc that users won't normally access (such as encounter windows), or visit/look at normally.

A1: Example: Not everyone probably immediately can know there's a 1-16 on Crit Chance. This information took me a while to double check/find. This is not info the average user usually interacts with.

B: There's rules and rulings that should be made clear about how to handle such information. I had to constantly ask questions about how we'd handle X, Y, and Z. Some of the wording's a bit unclear, or could use further elaboration.

B1: An example I had was in my 2nd co-star (which really was my first full Costar Topic). In it, I didn't know I'd need to declare my Pokemon's move on release. This is something normally done only by mods as usually they call their pokemon first, and thus the average player doesn't have a reason to interact with that rule.

============================

I have found the system is generally VERY well done in general, although the ease of use I had with it was supplemented by my Trial Moderator program to help with practicing elsewhere, and I don't got enough to say I have full mastery of the rules from a moderator standpoint. The average user may struggle with it, as parts of it are definitely not as intuitive and require a different mindset. As noted in CBox, in part due to a minor flub on my point, at one point Pixel got confused because Costar threw THEM off, and they're an experienced mod.

In general it's a 'mode' that will require some growing pains from users and mods alike. Moreso the users as, again, this is unlike just making any old normal topic. We can only wait and see how entirely non-mods handle a whole topic of Costar before we can see any more detailed flaws.

[Caramell 🍬]

We can link to the pertinent information that will be used for modding. That might help and is a good idea so the threads are easier to find? But we wouldn't be doubling the information over and that information isn't just for Costar, so definitely does deserve it's own topics. (Crits and such).

But we're working on A Guidebook for beginners that will also include links to advanced information and the like too. That could as easily work, cut down on the information. Biggest issue in having repeat information everywhere is that any time the information changes, you have to edit multiple places. Which is why we usually have one thread with it, and links in others telling you to check those things out.

Beyond that, it's really up to you to look (whoever is doing the heavy lifting). :3 We're all here to help each other as we all know it's a lot of information though.


Also on your point on how it flows:

May 1, 2024 2:32:06 GMT 11 Lamont said:

So the general flow becomes:
Mod starts encounter
    > member posts declaring their actions, then the mod posts w/ NPC actions
    > member does calcs + declares actions, then the mod again
    ... etc until encounter is over

It is laid out in detail in the Costar thread. Is the way it's written out confusing somehow? Seemed to state you have to declare your actions, then mod posts with the NPC's actions, then member does the calcs and declares actions again. Would it be better to add "does calcs + declared next actions" to be clearer or something?

[vartio]

May 7, 2024 10:20:35 GMT 11 Caramell 🍬 said:

We can link to the pertinent information that will be used for modding. That might help and is a good idea so the threads are easier to find? But we wouldn't be doubling the information over and that information isn't just for Costar, so definitely does deserve it's own topics. (Crits and such).

But we're working on A Guidebook for beginners that will also include links to advanced information and the like too. That could as easily work, cut down on the information. Biggest issue in having repeat information everywhere is that any time the information changes, you have to edit multiple places. Which is why we usually have one thread with it, and links in others telling you to check those things out.

Beyond that, it's really up to you to look (whoever is doing the heavy lifting). :3 We're all here to help each other as we all know it's a lot of information though.


Also on your point on how it flows:

May 1, 2024 2:32:06 GMT 11 Lamont said:

So the general flow becomes:
Mod starts encounter
    > member posts declaring their actions, then the mod posts w/ NPC actions
    > member does calcs + declares actions, then the mod again
    ... etc until encounter is over

It is laid out in detail in the Costar thread. Is the way it's written out confusing somehow? Seemed to state you have to declare your actions, then mod posts with the NPC's actions, then member does the calcs and declares actions again. Would it be better to add "does calcs + declared next actions" to be clearer or something?

Perhaps. I dunno, it's stated but I guess it's a matter of me not having the 'feel' down in part.

[Lamont]

1) You don't need to know encounter [brackets?] in Costar -- that's still all 100% mod controlled as noted in the quoted flow. Any other examples of more concrete things you were unable to find publicly? Def wanna hear about any pieces that are lacking ^^

On the matter of 'would not look normally', by opting in to this mode there is an expectation that the member would be taking it unto themselves to learn the available systems in the Handbooks area. The Costar thread is located there and so is the aptly named 'How to Advanced' topic (along with every other how-to and systems guide), which explains all of the things they are committing to knowing and understanding.

I don't think it's an unrealistic expectation. And of course we're all learning together and there's nothing wrong with asking questions. Staff does it all the time between each other. This isn't unique to Costar.


2) The flow is already detailed as Cara quoted. Would be helpful to know what part of that detailed flow isn't clear so we can tweak it :3

I'll tweak the '> member does calcs + declares [next] actions' at least for now.


Edit: It also specifically says in bullet #2 of the 'How does it work?' section that members are expected to declare their actions first before the NPC does. You don't have to do it 'on release', but if you don't the mod isn't going to be declaring their moves on release either.

[Professor Oak]

Let me share some insight as the main architect behind Costar (although credit goes to Lamont for the brilliant name! ). The main motivation behind introducing this optional mode was really to ease the burden on mods noting that the role of a mod has evolved to become increasingly challenging and complex compared to the past due to more generations of games adding additional Pokemon, abilities, moves, items and mechanics that interact with each other. There was recognition that it was unrealistic to expect people to be across every single mechanic and going through a lengthy checklist of things detracted from the main purpose of a mod which is to create stories and interesting scenarios to facilitate an RP rather than pure number-crunching.

All the current mods do an exceptional job and are amazing at what they do but this skillset has become a little too specialised meaning the burden has been concentrated on a select few leading to increased rates of burnout which has been an issue that has plagued us for quite a long time. My own experience picking up modding again after returning from a 5 year hiatus was feeling like I was learning how to walk again and there was increased pressure to get things right which could be a deterrent from making a mod reply or signing up as staff in the first place. Simply forgetting about an ability or an incorrect damage calculation could result in a completely different outcome which could result in the mod having to completely rewrite their response. Rather than just trying to simplify the system (i.e. removing certain features) or ruling that whatever the mod says goes (from a fairness perspective, we still want to allow the member to challenge decisions particularly if it ruins their strategy or prolongs a battle), we felt that the member was best placed in some instances to make the calculations themselves using the site's inbuilt RNG, particularly if they had a specific strategy in mind and had meticulously planned their approach.

So the spirit behind Costar was not to be too prescriptive or restrictive so long as the calculation is done by the member in good faith (i.e. they aren't trying to manipulate the outcome to their advantage such as not taking into account the NPC's ability and only considering their own). So stuff like forgetting to roll for critical hits is actually acceptable so long as they are neglecting to do so for both Pokemon. The idea is we won't police it or strictly regulate how they go about applying Costar unless it's clear they are trying to gain some sort of advantage (e.g. skipping turns when the outcome isn't certain). Stuff like forgetting an opposing Pokemon has the Pressure ability so they can't use the same move twice won't result in you being asked to rewrite your post. There will just be a gentle reminder as it may be a new learning experience for them.

As Caramell and Lamont have said, the nitty gritty about special mechanics like crit chances are probably best served being outlined in the "advance notes" sections to avoid duplication of information and including it beneath the Costar note would be counterproductive in its aim of creating the impression that modding and undertaking the calculation is accessible and something everyone can try. It was understood from the beginning that this feature would have some teething issues to begin with as it is different to what people are used to, but as mentioned the main objective was to instil the idea that mistakes are okay and everyone can try their hand at modding since we are a roleplaying site and not pedants trying to replicate exact battle mechanics. But definitely appreciate any feedback on how we can make this feature more widely accepted and accessible by easing initial confusion particularly on the flow of posting.